“We are so excited for our next guest. Our next guest is the C.E.O. of Figma, an A.I. and web-based design application founded in 2012. It’s Dylan Field. Dylan, welcome.” [CHEERING] “Thanks, guys. Good to see you.” “Hey, Dylan.” “Hey.” “So, Dylan, I want to start by reading you a Facebook message I got —” [LAUGHS] “— on August 5, 2009. ‘Hey, Kevin —’” “That’s when we were all, like, messaging each other.” “ —‘I recently picked up your book at the library. Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed it. Anyway, best of luck with your future endeavors. I’m going to Brown this fall. Who knows? Maybe I’ll meet you in Providence someday.’ That message was sent by a teenage boy named Dylan Field. And I want to just, first of all, apologize. I never respond to that. So —” “You can fix this.” “Can you imagine you write a book and a college student emails you out of the blue, and you’re like, Yeah, whatever?” “It was, you know —” “You had a lot going on.” “— a lot going on in 2009. Anyway, I’m sorry for ghosting you. And second of all —” “It was a good book. You should all read it.” “— how did your freshman year of college go?” “It was awesome. Yeah. And I got to meet you —” “Yeah.” “Because, I don’t know if you remember, but for the a capella group that you were in, you came back as a super senior to hang out with everyone, I guess?” “Yeah.” “Including the new freshmen?” “Yeah. Well, it went so well that you dropped out and moved to Silicon Valley to seek your fortune here, and it’s been quite a run for you. Figma went public last year, has had a wild ride. And I want to talk to you first about A.I. because I have heard that you are quite A.I.-pilled, and I have seen on your social media accounts that you are constantly experimenting with A.I., doing all these A.I. side projects. What are you doing? And do you have A.I. psychosis?” “I think it’s best to front run the psychosis. Rather than, like, have it sneak up on you, you just got to dive right in, and you get it over with. But yeah, I ask myself sometimes, and I don’t think so right now. I think I’ve got a pretty reasonable take on what models are good at, where they’re not so great. But it’s really interesting to see the new capabilities. Right now, I’m vibe-mathing.” “What’s vibe-mathing?” “Well, it’s basically where you do math, but with A.I. And —” “Are you proving Fermat’s Last Theorem? What are you doing?” “No, I’m not. But basically, like, I think it’s just interesting to see how A.I. attacks these problems. It’s the opposite of Figma. In Figma, we’re a design platform. We often are evaluating the models, trying to see how good they are at design, what we should use, what we should put in our product, expose to users. And it’s, like, the opposite of verifiable. You know, you and I can look at something and disagree or agree on the merits of it and the design merits of it. But, you know, there are some domains, like math, some aspects of computer science, where things are correct or they’re not. And so I think it’s really cool to see that range, and the verifiable domain’s models are very good at now.” “Casey vibe-mathed his way through high school. They flunked him. But I’m glad it’s going better for you.” “No. I don’t have any results, so just to be very clear.” “I want to hear a little bit more about, like, what direction you are taking all of your A.I. use in as you, sort of, you know, pursue these projects. This sounds like a lot of, sort of like personal stuff that you’re doing for fun. Is that just, sort of like, the curiosity of a lifelong learner, or is there something specific that you’re trying to find?” “I find that, just in general, the more that you explore new technology, you don’t know how it’s going to pay off or what benefit it will have, but it ends up having some benefit in weird ways you can’t expect. And you had [? Node ?] up here earlier. I was very excited about NFTs early on, and then they became what they are now. They weren’t called NFTs then. They were called crypto collectibles because that was a cool phrase. But, you know, it was — like, whether it’s that or, you know, WebGL, which led to Figma, I just always try to explore stuff and, like, go deep on it, figure out the new capabilities because you can find ways to use them.” “I have a theory that I want to run past you, which is that — every startup founder, C.E.O. in Silicon Valley is obsessed with vibe-coding. They’re all doing it on the weekends. They come in on Mondays, and, you know, they say, why aren’t we building this thing? Fifty people used to build this thing. I just built it in a weekend. It’s driving their employees crazy. But I have — my theory about this is that this is, this is reminding C.E.O.s of what it was like when their jobs were fun. Do you agree with that statement?” “You said you’re fearful of that.” “No, that’s my theory.” “Oh, theory. O.K., sorry. I misheard you. I think that people like to make things, and they like to design stuff, and they like to actually put their ideas out in the world in a more tangible way. And I think we’re just going to see more of it from everyone, not just C.E.O.s trying to have fun on the weekends.” “Speaking of making stuff, Figma recently launched an ad campaign organized around the idea — sort of making fun of the idea that design is dead. It’s sort of a more common sentiment, maybe in the era of A.I. Make that case for us, that design is not dead in a world where I can just, sort of, type what kind of app I want into a box.” “This is a real roller coaster, from, you know, my 2009 Facebook message and now to design is dead.” “We’re covering it all.” “It’s taken a turn. No, I mean — look, I think that there’s so many hot takes online. I’m sure you get a few of them an hour. And, you know, I think when new models drop, everyone’s looking for something that they can say is dead, because, you know, on social media now, it’s like either you’re so back or it’s so over. And I prefer to be back. But no, I mean, in terms of the case — I mean, look, like it’s interesting to see folks catch up to the capabilities, and it’s like, yeah, you can do a lot. But the average, sort of, response from A.I., whether it’s a domain like writing — my hot take right now would be, I actually think that people that know how to write and actually engage in thinking, critical thinking around writing, and it’s, like, it’s a good time for them.” “It’s a good time for them.” “Yeah. Well, you tell me, but I think so.” [APPLAUSE] “It’s like half the audience is applauding, and they’re like, I don’t know. Should we not? Is it too, like — are we sucking up?” “I mean, I think, like, to the extent that writing is a showcase for your critical thinking abilities, like, yes, like having great critical thinking skills are always, like, a boon. Like, is the —” “But it’s also style.” “What’s that?” “It’s a style of writing.” “Sure.” “Like, if you’re funny, if you’ve got an actual, like, way you phrase things, if you have voice. And I think it’s especially true right now in a way that it wasn’t a few years ago. Like, three, five years ago, I would’ve said, Oh man, there’s a lot of people on social media that are writing really interesting things. And we’re in this world where, like, there’s, you know, Substack, and, like, people are putting content there, and it’s really good. And now I look at that, and I’m like, man, it’s a lot of clod. Maybe I’m overrotating, even, on identifying people that are basically using A.I. to write. Same thing’s true for design. Folks are basically looking at these websites or applications and seeing the average. Maybe they’re even overidentifying it. But I think if you have a creative voice, writing or design, you put yourself out there and you, like, take a risk, this is a good time to do that. It’s something that’s going to be rewarded.” “And I can imagine, you know, maybe, in your view, there’s a world where the fact that I can use an A.I. tool to quickly whip up a design, might make me more interested in actually getting good, right—” “Yes.” — and, sort of, like not settling for the first generation.” “Yeah, exactly. It’s like, how do you not settle for the first draft, the first thing out there, the first output, and actually mold it and craft it and push it further? And I think that the more you can do that, the more you’ll send out, and also, the more you’ll be differentiated. And I think that there’s going to — I mean, we saw the data recently on the number of apps in the App Store. It went up a ton. But the number of apps actually being used and getting frequent traffic is still the same. And so you’re basically in this hypercompetitive environment now where you have to differentiate. You really have to, like, lean in and figure out how to have a unique voice and a unique take, and a unique point of view, just like writing.” “The big buzzword in San Francisco right now is ‘taste.’ Everyone’s talking about taste as the sort of bulwark against being replaced by A.I. If you have taste, you’ll be fine.” “It’s the first time taste has ever been a big subject in San Francisco, I think.” “Yes, this is a city that made Allbirds.” “Yeah. Proudly tasteless since 1821.” “And then I’ve heard some people argue that, actually, taste is just the word we give to the stuff that the models aren’t very good at yet. You know, researchers in A.I. used to say, Ah but they don’t have taste. And then the models got better, and it was like, Oh, wait a minute, maybe they can do all of the taste parts of the job, too. So defend the concept of taste as being either important or a cope from people who just haven’t used the good models yet.” “I mean, the cycle seems to be the model comes out. You think it can do everything. You discover the limits. And then you realize that, like, life goes on. And — will at some point that be different and affect the world in a different way? Perhaps. We’ll see. But so far, it seems like everyone’s adapting. And part of that adaptation is realizing, sort of, the new average that’s being put out by the models. And I think it’s not even — you don’t even have to defend taste and people having taste, because then we can argue about, do they? To just recognize people can detect the average, they can detect that output and they can dare to do more. But I also do believe that this is a great time to be creative. And I think that the more the models put out that’s in distribution, because that’s how the models are trained. They’re trained on distribution of data. And if you’re in distribution and you’re not actually pushing the bounds, like, I think that you’re in a worse shape than if you’re actually going and exploring the frontier of human knowledge, creativity, and what you can put out in the world. And making something that’s fundamentally new as an expression of yourself. So I get excited about that. I get excited about our opportunity to be the place where people can really unlock their creativity at Figma, and — or one of the places — there’ll be many — and just, like, creating tools that can empower people.” “I’m curious if you’re seeing a reaction in the world of art and design to A.I. and what that looks like, right. You think back, and the invention of the camera gets us impressionism. Do we have an analog for that yet in the design world now that A.I. makes design easier to access?” “I think it’s interesting how we’re seeing some of that reaction maybe in the world of marketing and advertising. I don’t know if — maybe it’s happening in the art world. Like, I would’ve expected, by now, that people would be really into sculpture in a way that they’re not, or just things with textures. And, I mean, my, like, art thesis — you know, so probably don’t hire me as an art advisor — but, like, you know, I think that that’s probably a natural reaction, is, like, lean into the things that are not digital, whereas I think in advertising now we’re seeing ways to prove authenticity, to prove that you are actually making something that is not generated by A.I., and some companies are really going for that. In the world of design, I think that what we’re going to see and what we are starting to see — a lot more interactivity, a lot more creativity, people really making software more of a creative medium. You know, I think back to the early days of the internet, and it was so fun. And I feel like the last 15 years or so, like, basically the time we’ve been working on Figma, we kind of have been in a bit of a rut, honestly. A lot of very monoculture takes when it comes to design and the way it expresses. And, you know, the people that are trying to do the hot takes in the audience will be like, And Figma’s to blame. [LAUGHS] hopefully not.” “Shame on you.” “Yeah, exactly. Casey said it. But, no, I think that the more we can do to make it so that people can push further and, like, actually create really dynamic interfaces, as well as marketing and media in general, the better.” “Have you seen anything that’s been A.I. generated in the realm of design or art that you think is really good? Like, Casey turned me on to ‘Fruit Love Island,’ which is now my —” “You’ve all watched it.” “— my favorite TV show/TikTok series. But is there anything that you’ve seen that is clearly AI..-generated where you’re like, Oh, that’s actually kind of fun and interesting?” “You know, yes, and also, it wears off fast. I think it’s just like any style —” “I’m on Season 3 of ‘Fruit Love Island,’ so —” “Not for all of us.” “It hasn’t worn off —” “Not yet.” “I haven’t seen it, so—” “The pineapple had an affair.” “The papaya and the banana are about to hook up. It’s great.” “Oh, wow. Sounds tantalizing. I’ll have to watch later tonight.” “I want, I want to come back to something that you were saying about writing earlier that’s just, sort of, been on my mind ever since you brought it up, because you were bringing about the fact that we have Substack now and a lot more people are writing, which I agree with you, is super cool. When Satya was here earlier, he brought up this post that he had read that was on Substack today. I happened to read the same post because it was on Techmeme. And I read it, and I’m just going to say — it was Claude-generated. OK. And it irritated me, as somebody who’s always trying to get my stories on Techmeme, because I’m, like, I’m just reading, like, the output of a prompt. And so when I read that, my honest feeling is, like, this is not good for my profession. Like, my profession is starting to look more and more like slop. And so I just wonder, like, if there are designers in the audience, if they’re having a similar feeling when, you know, they’re looking at the designs that they’re seeing everywhere and they’re just knowing that it was outputted with the touch of a button.” “Well, I mean, one quality that writers and designers also share is imposter syndrome, and it’s good to label it so that you know it’s there and you don’t have to deal with it every day, or as much. But I think designers are arguably in one of the best roles in technology. And, I mean, I’m talking to companies all the time, customers, are telling me that they’re hiring designers. Sometimes they’re not hiring others. But design is one of the most prioritized places in the company where they’re hiring. Overall, folks are still hiring a lot, which also perplexes me. I mean, we’re in a world where folks are saying that all the jobs are going to get replaced, and they then turn around, and they’re like, Oh, let me call the really good engineers so I can get them to join my team. So it just doesn’t make sense to me right now in general. But I am very, very bullish on design and the role it’ll play in accelerating companies further.” “So you think like two years from today, like, there are more people whose job title is designer than are — they have it today.” “How many years?” “Say two?” “Yeah, I think so. I think probably significantly more. And a lot of people that are doing other jobs, I think, will start calling themselves designers, creatives. You know, I think in general, we’re seeing more of this, kind of, generalist vibe that people are feeling like they have to embody. One thing that’s been interesting is a lot of engineers, kind of like you were saying, getting started in started on their design journey because they make something so fast and they’re like, Now what? And is it good enough? Maybe I should push it further. And then they, kind of, are trying to figure out, OK, how do I do that? So I’m pretty excited about that part, too, welcoming more people in as designers.” “I have a friend in the audience tonight who is a product manager, who started out as a non-technical person and is now able to create really amazing prototypes just with the advance of A.I. tools. I can see a world where design gets, you know, added into that portfolio as well. I just think — and I think that at the end of that, like, that job probably has a different name, like, than P.M.? Maybe not?” “Not all of it will be great design, but the act of, like, considering and being thoughtful about what you’re doing and then actually putting it out and taking risks? I mean, that’s design.” “Dylan, this is a lot of high-minded conversation. Let’s gossip.” “O.K. About what?” “Earlier this year, Mike Krieger, former board member at Figma, a product lead at Anthropic, co-founder of Instagram, was — he suddenly resigned from your board. And just days later, Anthropic announced Claude Design, which feels a little Figma-adjacent. So what the heck happened there?” “I mean, you just told the story. But I mean, let me be clear, like, Mike is a great dude and, yeah, someone I really care about.” “Would you let another A.I. lab executive onto your board in the future?” “Well, I mean, we saw how that went in terms of, like, you know, unexpected products rolling out. And so it probably depends on what their ambitions are.” “In a general sense — you’re not gossip — forget these people are there, it’s just us birds.” “Sorry, y’all.” “It’s just us birds. In a general sense, I think a lot of C.E.O.s are worried about the A.I. labs, sort of, integrating more vertically, like taking over insurance companies or accounting firms. We’re starting to see some of that happen, where these labs are just kind of expanding into all the adjacent industries and really creating tough times for the companies in those industries already. Do you expect that to continue? Are these labs just, kind of, going to continue to grow and grow and grow and just become these, like, amorphous blobs that just, you know, create havoc for all the smaller startups in those fields?” “Well, I mean, let’s tell a tale of two A.I. labs. You know, you’ve got OpenAI and Anthropic. And OpenAI, kind of, went through that journey. They launched a lot of stuff, a social network, even, Sora, which I really enjoyed. I know you did, too, Casey.” “I had some fun. Yeah.” “Yeah. Anyway — so, you know, speaking of A.I. generation, I mean, I did enjoy watching myself break dance.” “And you’ll see him do it again later tonight.” “With a robot. But, anyway, yeah, I mean, I think that — you know, then they made the hard call of actually shutting that down and focusing the efforts of the company. And that’s a hard call to make. But respect that they did it. And then also, I think, you know, you’ve got Anthropic. It’s in its arc of being more expansionary. They’re thinking, launching a lot of stuff. And I think you see what works and what doesn’t. And then you see a year later what happens. I mean, I think the more interesting question is, A year or two years out, like where will they be playing still? And, you know, not everything works. It’s hard to build product and get it out in the world.” “What are some things that you think they will attempt and fail at?” “Oh, I don’t know. Safety? I’m joking.” [LAUGHING] “Very good.” “That might be the best answer of ‘Hard Fork Live’ 2026.” “Yeah, very good. Very good. Dylan, you run a public company. It’s enterprise SaaS. The market is very skeptical of that right now. Your job seems hard. How is it going for you? And do you think you convince the market that there is a bright future for you and your enterprise SaaS brethren?” “I don’t have to. Elon Musk is doing it. [INAUDIBLE] right?” “Yeah.” “I mean, what is it, $22.9 trillion on enterprise applications? Let’s go.” [LAUGHING] “I’ll pretend to know what you mean.” [LAUGHING] “No, I mean, like — but actually, I mean, how do you put that out there and not go, Wow, and software is huge. I mean, he made it bigger than the entire space economy—” “Right.” “So two tales,” “OK. I’m told, we only have a few minutes left, but I’m told that you have a desire to talk about hyperstition. What is hyperstition, and why are we supposed to know about it?” [LAUGHING] “I guess someone from our team told you that. This is, I mean, getting back to the abstract conversation — sorry, y’all — but it’s basically someone who’s kind of like an internet edgelord came up with this term. Don’t look him up. But I do think there’s, like, a really interesting idea here, which is, how do you describe this phenomenon where ideas, memes summon their own existence? And the two examples that I think are really good at this -— one is Bitcoin, and the other one’s A.I. You know, why did Bitcoin work? There’s every reason to believe, in the world, that Bitcoin would not work. And yet it just snowballed. And, basically, the more attention it got, the more, basically, strong it became. And A.I. is the same way. You know, there’s all these folks that cared so much about safety, so much that they thought, OK, we got to do this in the right way. We got to form nonprofits and, like, get together, and, like, all of us got to be in one place so that we can, like, really shepherd this technology into the future. And, you know, we’ve got to make sure that we don’t create a race dynamic, for example. We’ve got to make sure that, you know, we have these complex corporate structures that we can make sure that this benefits humanity in the best ways possible. But then it’s like, OK, well, there’s a lot of, like, really powerful stuff you can make with A.I., and, you know, people are people. It’s hard to always get along. And, man, you know, there’s always an incentive to break apart. And well, hello race dynamic. Here we are. And it summons it’s own existence.” “Can I try to repeat back to you what I’ve heard so far, and you tell me if I’m right or not?” “Yeah, please. You’ll communicate it better than me. You got this.” “Well, hyperstition — the way I have heard of it is, like, in the sense of the A.I. is learning from what stories we tell about A.I. So if you want A.I. to go well, you should, like, feed it a bunch of stories about A.I. being, like, really nice to humans.” “That’s part of it, too.” “I think that it’s also the case that A.I. is painfully aware, in some cases, of all these tropes that are on the internet about it. And, you know, it’ll talk to you about the Google engineer that thought it was conscious. It’ll talk with you about, sort of, the stories around science fiction and the ways that it’s been depicted. It’s very aware. It’s all in the training set. And, you know, there’s not as much information, for some reason, in the training set, data set of these stories where it goes well. But I actually do think there’s an optimistic future for humanity. And I know that’s a hot take now for some reason. But I want to believe that every day. And I think that it’s on all of us to tell those stories, too, of how it does go well.” “And so it might be a good time to write some stories about how things could go well, just to make sure it gets into the training data.” “Yeah, exactly. You got it.” “You have your homework for this evening.” “Dylan Field, thank you so much —” “Dylan Field, thank you —” “Thank you for having me. Thanks, guys.” “Thank you.” “Thanks so much, Dylan.” “Thank you. Have a good night.” “Thank you.” [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC PLAYING]
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